Curse

SerenitySilverstar · May 06, 2007, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Problem: Henchmen skill synergy and effectiveness in Hard Mode is somewhat lacking.

Solution: Tweak it!

The Challenge: Pick a campaign. Pick a Henchman. Build a skill set for them, only usable in Hard Mode.

Rules:
1) Skills can only come from Core and Campaign Specific for the henchmen (eg: Odurra can only use Core and Nightfall Mesmer skills).

2) If you can build an effective skill set for a Guild Wars wide used Henchman (eg: Mehnlo) with JUST Core skills, extra kudos!

3) You have all 8 skill slots to utilize.

4) An Elite is not a prerequisite, but if you DO use one, it can't be too over powered in the interests of balance (eg: Devona can't have "Dwarven Hammer Stance").

5) Balance is the key. The skill set can't be so overpowered that it negates all need to use PUGs/Heroes.

6) Each Henchman can only be their core profession, no secondaries.

Format:
Henchman: Name
Campaign: Campaign Name/Core
Original Skill Set: List It if you want (available at Wiki)
New Hard Mode Skill Set: List it, with explanation of reasoning if you like.

Have at!

I guess I should go first

Henchman: Odurra
Campaign: Nightfall
Original Skill Set: (Level 20) Cry of Frustration, Empathy, Ether Feast, Leech Signet, Shatter Hex, Rez Signet
New Hard Mode Skill Set:
1. Cry of Frustration
2. Empathy
3. Shatter Enchantment
4. Mantra of Concentration
5. Leech Signet
6. Energy Surge {E}
7. Ether Phantom
8. Rez

Reasoning: Attributes still residing in Domination and Inspiration, Odurra needs slightly better defense (ergo MoC). There's a good mix of damage output (Empathy, Shatter, E-Surge), energy denial (E-Surge, Ether Phantom), and interrupt (CoF, Leech), without being swayed too much in either direction.

Kale Ironfist · May 07, 2007, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Henchmen: Devona
Campaign: Core
Original Skill Set: (Level 20) "Charge!", Counter Blow, Healing Signet, Irresistible Blow, Mighty Blow, Resurrection Signet
New Hard Mode Skill Set:
1. Devastating Hammer {E}
2. Mighty Blow
3. Irresistible Blow
4. Counter Blow
5. "For Great Justice!"
6. Sprint
7. Healing Signet
8. Resurrection Signet

Reasoning: This allows Devona to be more offense oriented without fully utilising her hammer (no real synergy in the skills), applying a condition that's useful, wherever it's applied, but also deadly if the condition is transferred. Attributes geared towards high Hammer Mastery, and mid-Strength/Tactics. What would also be nice is if she had a Stonefist Insignia, but it's not required.

SerenitySilverstar · May 07, 2007, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Here's another

Henchman: Sogolon
Campaign: Nightfall
Original Skill Set: Aria of Restoration, Ballad of Restoration, Cautery Signet {E}, Leaders Comfort, Mending Refrain, Signet of Synergy, Rez Signet
New Hard Mode Skill Set:
1. Aria of Restoration
2. Song of Restoration {E}
3. Zealous Anthem
4. Aria of Zeal
5. Leader's Comfort
6. Burning Refrain
7. Spear of Lightening
8. Signet of Return (Permanent Rez)

Reasoning: Sogolon has been set as a team player, but he has too many "self" skills. There's health and energy return for all in this build, along with some offensive which he does lack (BR and SoL). A perma-rez would make him very useful.

Puebert · May 07, 2007, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Henchman: Cynn

Campaign: Nightfall

Original Skill Set:
[skill]Aura of Restoration[/skill][skill]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill]Fire Storm[/skill][skill]Fireball[/skill][skill]Incendiary Bonds[/skill][skill]Mind Burn[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

New Hard Mode Skill Set:
[skill]Aura of Restoration[/skill][skill]Water Attunement[/skill][skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill][skill]Icy Shackles[/skill][skill]Steam[/skill][skill]Maelstrom[/skill][skill]Blurred Vision[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

Reason: First of all, there is no Water Magic henchman, so I want Cynn to be. (I am tired of seeing FS) Second, Water Magic has some decent snares that can be used to keep the running AI in place. Her elite, Icy Shackles, can be used to keep a monk in Malestorm, or in an another AoE effect spells. Blurred Vision can also help keep melee attackers away from important targets, and Steam is there to help blind foes, scince burning has become a very common condition in groups.

Icy Shackles would be used on called targets after Maelstorm
Steam would only be used on Burning foes, or to finish off a foe.
And Blurred Vision would only be used on Warriors, Rangers, Assassins, Dervishes, and Paragons.

Kale Ironfist · May 07, 2007, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Henchman: Mhenlo
Campaign: Core
Original Skill Set: (varies based on campaign)
Hard Mode Skill Set:
1. Word of Healing {E}
2. Orison of Healing
3. Healing Touch
4. Smite Hex
5. Mend Ailment
6. Divine Intervention
7. Healing Breeze
8. Restore/Renew Life (depending on Campaign)

Reasoning: While this skill set retains most of his healing as per current Normal/Hard Mode, it provides hex and condition removal, and if AI reflexes just aren't up to it, Divine Intervention to prevent a death. I could not justify having a core resurrection skill as Rebirth would consume his energy (leading to longer wait times or risk death) and Resurrect was not as cost efficient as campaign specific resurrection skills.

Additionally, this skill set could be given to Alesia, giving slightly greater flexibility to Hard Mode parties before the Crystal Desert.

Puebert · May 07, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

Henchman: Odurra
Campaign: Nightfall
Original Skill Set: (Level 20) Cry of Frustration, Empathy, Ether Feast, Leech Signet, Shatter Hex, Rez Signet
New Hard Mode Skill Set:
1. Cry of Frustration
2. Empathy
3. Shatter Enchantment
4. Mantra of Concentration
5. Leech Signet
6. Energy Surge {E}
7. Ether Phantom
8. Rez

Reasoning: Attributes still residing in Domination and Inspiration, Odurra needs slightly better defense (ergo MoC). There's a good mix of damage output (Empathy, Shatter, E-Surge), energy denial (E-Surge, Ether Phantom), and interrupt (CoF, Leech), without being swayed too much in either direction.

Personally, I think [skill=text]Hex Eater Vortex[/skill] would be a better skill, because of the hexes in RoT/DoA, as the henchmen don't really have a decent hex removal, and this would make her more useful (in my opinion).

I like [skill=text]Shatter Enchantment[/skill], as long as she uses it on casters.

Kale Ironfist · May 08, 2007, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puebert

Personally, I think [skill=text]Hex Eater Vortex[/skill] would be a better skill, because of the hexes in RoT/DoA, as the henchmen don't really have a decent hex removal, and this would make her more useful (in my opinion).

I like [skill=text]Shatter Enchantment[/skill], as long as she uses it on casters.

The point is to make them viable party members without making them outright superior to Heroes or other players.

Time to do my third core henchman.

Henchman: Aidan
Campaign: Core
Original Skill Set: (varies with Campaign)
Hard Mode Skill Set:
1. Kindle Arrows
2. Quick Shot {E}
3. Savage Shot
4. Hunter's Shot
5. Whirling Defense
6. Troll Unguent
7. Antidote Signet
8. Resurrection Signet

Reasoning:
This core set gives Aidan the ability to deal damage, interrupt and add some minor degeneration while at the same time add some survivability in the form of blocking attacks, some condition removal and health regeneration (which he already had). For Nightfall owners, this will give him a decent elite while at the same time not wasting a skill slot due to henchmen AI (what was Heket's Rampage doing there in the first place?!).

This is probably the hardest to do, since there aren't many good Marksmanship skills in the core set that fits Aidan and his backstory/personality. Read the Wind would have fit that better, but damage comes first since his bow is an Ivory Bow IIRC (and therefore a Hornbow type).

SerenitySilverstar · May 08, 2007, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Puebert - Hex Eater Vortex, a good choice. I like it

Might be a little overpowered as Kale suggests, but it would be interesting to compare how these hench builds synergize together in a team.

Ok, time to try another.

Henchman: Aidan
Campaign: Nightfall/Prophecies
Original Skill Set: Proph - Dual Shot, Kindle Arrows, Power Shot, Practiced Stance {e}, Troll Ungent, Rez
Nightfall - Dual Shot, Kindle Arrows, Power Shot, Heket's Rampage, Troll Ungent, Rez
New Hard Mode Skill Set: (using ALL Core skills)
1. Kindle Arrows (preparation)
2. Storm Chaser (Stance)
3. Quick Shot {E}
4. Power Shot (+damage)
5. Hunter's Shot (+damage and bleeding if foe moving)
6. Debilitating Shot (e-denial)
7. Troll Ungent
8. Rez

Reasoning: Aidan needs more defense (Storm Chaser). His damage is fairly average, which is why I gave him 2 plus damage shot skills. Plus he needs to be a bit more versatile - the Kindle Arrows stays, but the Debilitating, Hunter's and Quick shots make him more useful.

My only concern would that be that his "Hench AI" may make him spam Quick Shot too much.

It could have been easy to make him a Beastmaster, but that would make him too overpowered to a team I feel.

*edit* Hehe Kale - great minds and all that! Yes, I thought about Read The Wind and Whirling Defense too. Your set up looks good. Perhaps having 3 other bow attacks in my set up may be over powered with his horn bow. Good thinking.

SerenitySilverstar · May 08, 2007, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

Henchman: Mhenlo
Campaign: Core
Original Skill Set: (varies based on campaign)
Hard Mode Skill Set:
1. Word of Healing {E}
2. Orison of Healing
3. Healing Touch
4. Smite Hex
5. Mend Ailment
6. Divine Intervention
7. Healing Breeze
8. Restore/Renew Life (depending on Campaign)

I'd probably replace Smite Hex for Remove Hex, because it's non-attriubuted. Purge Conditions is another non-attributed, which could replace Mend Ailment, but it would be a decision which is more balanced - the shorter recharge/one condition removal of MA, or longer recharge/remove all for PC.

Not A Fifty Five · May 08, 2007, 03:36 AM // 03:36

I'd just like to point out.. I don't think giving them an ideal bar would be such a bad thing: you can control heroes' actions, movements, AND customize their skillbars, and with pugs they (might) actually play their bars well.

This is hard mode after all, I doubt people are going to use henchies much at all, heroes are just so much better.

SerenitySilverstar · May 08, 2007, 04:37 AM // 04:37

55 - my thoughts was just to add some balance to a HM hero and hench team.

I'm not wanting hench to completely replace the need for heroes or Pugs. Under powered as they are is frustrating. Overpowering them is not in the community spirit ArenaNet wants to foster.

I just want them to have HM skills that work better within a team you'd feel comfortable taking out if you were in a tight situation for human players.

Kale Ironfist · May 08, 2007, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

Reasoning: Aidan needs more defense (Storm Chaser).

Storm Chaser adds speed and energy gain when hit by elemental damage. That's defence how?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

I'd probably replace Smite Hex for Remove Hex, because it's non-attriubuted. Purge Conditions is another non-attributed, which could replace Mend Ailment, but it would be a decision which is more balanced - the shorter recharge/one condition removal of MA, or longer recharge/remove all for PC.

I put in Smite Hex because of the lower cast time. Remove Hex takes too long to take effect. Also, Purge Conditions has a rather long recharge time, and henchmen will use it whenever there is a condition to remove, so they won't use it smartly, which is why I put in Mend Ailment.

On to my 4th core henchmen, Eve!

Henchman: Eve
Campaign: Core
Original Skill Set: Blood Ritual, Deathly Swarm, Grenth's Balance, Resurrection Signet, Shadow Strike, Vampiric Gaze
Hard Mode Skill Set 1 (Blood):
1. Grenth's Balance {E}
2. Vampiric Gaze
3. Order of Pain
4. Blood Ritual
5. Life Siphon
6. Strip Enchantment
7. Demonic Flesh
8. Resurrection Signet

Hard Mode Skill Set 2 (Death):
1. Deathly Swarm
2. Putrid Explosion
3. Grenth's Balance {E}
4. Death Nova
5. Vile Touch
6. Rotting Flesh
7. Soul Feast
8. Resurrection Signet

This was extremely hard to put together after looking the core skill lists for Necromancers. There were very few skills that had synergy, and I wanted to have a full 8 slot bar. The reason why I've got two skill bars above is because Eve in game is a blood Necromancer, yet her background is that of the Death Magic practitioner.

Reasoning 1 (Blood Skill Set): Eve retains most of what she has now, but has added enchantment removal, more health for synergy with Grenth's Balance and Order of Pain to have physicals dish out more damage! This all comes at the price of having more sacrifice skills (although there are more ways for her to heal herself).

Reasoning 2 (Death Skill Set): This skill set packs a bigger offensive punch at the cost of team utility. The disease brought about by Rotting Flesh helps to whittle away enemies, or it could backfire and be brought on to your team, depending on who you fight.

Crimso · May 08, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Little thom(current skills)

[skill]Balanced Stance[/skill][skill]Executioner's Strike[/skill][skill]Healing Signet[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill][skill]Sprint[/skill][skill]Swift chop[/skill][skill]Wild Blow[/skill][skill]"Charge!"[/skill]

His current set is'nt very useful and 5 of the skills require energy which a warrior doesent usually have much of.
Also With his current setup wild blow stops him causing conditions with swift chop and gets rid of the adrenaline he needs for executioner's strike.

Little thom(hard mode set I think he should get)

[skill]Disciplined Stance[/skill][skill]Griffon's Sweep[/skill][skill]Healing Signet[/skill][skill]Sprint[/skill][skill]Dismember[/skill][skill]Axe Rake[/skill][skill]Cleave[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

This build would be better this time he can cause deep-wound and cripple enemies(which move faster then normal so slowing them would be useful). His stance for defence is better even if he's vulnerable to knockdowns.

Charge was replaced by cleave so he can do more damage with his attacks and Griffon's sweep instead of Executioner's Strike to knock down blocking enemies.

bhavv · May 08, 2007, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Sorry, but I still dont want to limited to the lame suggested builds for henchmen that are on here.

Please make them customisable, or just allow 7 heroes.

All my builds require cross campain, and in most cases cross class skills, henchmen will still be crap in HM if they are tied to their campain and class skills only.

SerenitySilverstar · May 08, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Sorry, but I still dont want to limited to the lame suggested builds for henchmen that are on here.

Please make them customisable, or just allow 7 heroes.

All my builds require cross campain, and in most cases cross class skills, henchmen will still be crap in HM if they are tied to their campain and class skills only.

I feel like a broken record but, again: It's all about BALANCE.

Within the mechanics of the game, Henchmen are not - and will not be made - customisable. That would just make them heroes.

Also, we have been told that a 7-hero team is not possible, game mechanics wise AND in the interest of balance.

Therefore, you work with what you've got, which is a set of hench. With my suggestion, and within the rules of game mechanics, the one way we CAN change their synergy within Hard Mode is by changing their skills. And there are rules to that as well.

The challenge is creating something that works within the rules.

Kale Ironfist · May 08, 2007, 11:54 PM // 23:54

bhavv, it looks like you've not bothered to notice that ArenaNet won't do anything you've asked. They're not going to make Henchmen customisable, nor will they allow more than 3 heroes per player. What this thread is designed to do is make the henchmen more synergistic in a team and make them viable party members for those who don't have Nightfall, but not make them outright superior to heroes or other players.

On that note, I'm going to do Cynn.

Henchman: Cynn
Campaign: Core
Original Skill Set: Aura of Restoration, Fire Attunement, Fire Storm, Fireball, Incendiary Bonds, Mind Burn, Resurrection Signet
Hard Mode Skill Set:
1. Aura of Restoration
2. Elemental Attunement {E}
3. Blurred Vision
4. Rust
5. Enervating Charge
6. Lightning Orb
7. Lightning Touch
8. Resurrection Signet

Reasoning: While this setup reduces her damage potential by a large margin, it provides damage mitigation through Blurred Vision and Enervating Charge, utility through tripling the activation of signets and decent single target damage through Lightning Orb and Lightning Touch. The only problem I see is if the AI tries to use Lightning Touch indiscriminately (and therefore head to the frontlines).

Additionally, while this strays far from what Cynn is in game, I find her personality to be more precise and sharp than fiery. It's also far more helpful than a fire nuker who can't target properly and less susceptible to Power Block.

bhavv · May 09, 2007, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Ok, this is what I would like to see, and im not sticking to the campain and core skills only rule

Mhenlo

[skill]orison of healing[/skill][skill]words of comfort[/skill][skill]dwayna's kiss[/skill][skill]light of deliverance[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill][skill]holy veil[/skill][skill]channeling[/skill][skill]renew life[/skill]

Lina and Khim

[skill]reversal of fortune[/skill][skill]gift of health[/skill][skill]shield of regeneration[/skill][skill]shielding hands[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill][skill]holy veil[/skill][skill]channeling[/skill][skill]renew life[/skill]

Sogolon

[skill]aria of restoration[/skill][skill]ballad of restoration[/skill][skill]cautery signet[/skill][skill]signet of synergy[/skill][skill]aria of zeal[/skill][skill]zealous anthem[/skill][skill]hexbreaker aria[/skill][skill]signet of return[/skill]

All earth henchmen

[skill]Ebon hawk[/skill][skill]stoning[/skill][skill]glowstone[/skill][skill]sandstorm[/skill][skill]ward against melee[/skill][skill]glyph of lesser energy[/skill][skill]earth attunement[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

Those are really the only ones im bothered about in NF and the monks in general. The monks and rit heroes in Factions need a serious reworking, they can barely keep a party alive when covered in mass degen and low health across all members, which happens a lot in factions, and usually leads to party wipeouts as the monks have terrible skill sets considering energy managements.

All cantha monks:

[skill]reversal of fortune[/skill][skill]shielding hands[/skill][skill]gift of health[/skill][skill]blessed light[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill][skill]signet of devotion[/skill][skill]deny hexes[/skill][skill]resurrection chant[/skill]

Cantha Rit healers:

[skill]mend body and soul[/skill][skill]spirit light[/skill][skill]soothing memories[/skill][skill]weapon of warding[/skill][skill]offering of spirit[/skill][skill]life[/skill][skill]protective was kaolai[/skill][skill]flesh of my flesh[/skill]

SerenitySilverstar · May 09, 2007, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

Storm Chaser adds speed and energy gain when hit by elemental damage. That's defence how?

Yeah you're right

I was thinking more in the way of "being able to run away fast" and "gain energy". Whirling Defense is probably the better choice.

Quote:

I put in Smite Hex because of the lower cast time. Remove Hex takes too long to take effect. Also, Purge Conditions has a rather long recharge time, and henchmen will use it whenever there is a condition to remove, so they won't use it smartly, which is why I put in Mend Ailment.

Alll good points

Quote:

On to my 4th core henchmen, Eve!

Henchman: Eve
Campaign: Core
Original Skill Set: Blood Ritual, Deathly Swarm, Grenth's Balance, Resurrection Signet, Shadow Strike, Vampiric Gaze
Hard Mode Skill Set 1 (Blood):
1. Grenth's Balance {E}
2. Vampiric Gaze
3. Order of Pain
4. Blood Ritual
5. Life Siphon
6. Strip Enchantment
7. Demonic Flesh
8. Resurrection Signet

Yes, Eve IS a hard one to tweak. I think I would go Blood and Curses with her though. Change out Order of Pain and Demonic Flesh (having two sacs on a hench could lead to stupid AI sac death?) and change them for:

Barbs
and
Faintheartedness

SerenitySilverstar · May 09, 2007, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

Henchman: Cynn
Campaign: Core
Original Skill Set: Aura of Restoration, Fire Attunement, Fire Storm, Fireball, Incendiary Bonds, Mind Burn, Resurrection Signet
Hard Mode Skill Set:
1. Aura of Restoration
2. Elemental Attunement {E}
3. Blurred Vision
4. Rust
5. Enervating Charge
6. Lightning Orb
7. Lightning Touch
8. Resurrection Signet

Looks good. Yeah, I'd be wary of a hench having a touch skill, especially an offense-based hench like Cynn. I like your thinking, but I'd probably go with a cheap Core spammable like Lightening Strike instead.

Puebert · May 09, 2007, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Well, I really like this thread, so here comes my second one.

Henchman: Eve

Campaign: Prophecies

Original Skill Set:
[skill]Blood Ritual[/skill][skill]Deathly Swarm[/skill][skill]Grenth's Balance[/skill][skill]Shadow Strike[/skill][skill]Vampiric Gaze[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

New Hard Mode Skill Set:
[skill]Awaken the Blood[/skill][skill]Soul Leech[/skill][skill]Well of Blood[/skill][skill]Life Siphon[/skill][skill]Enfeeble[/skill][skill]Parasitic Bond[/skill][skill]Strip Enchantment[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

Reason: Well, right now, Eve's elite is kinda, dumb. She rarely gets to use it, and its not alway effective. However, with [skill=text]Soul Leech[/skill], she can use this on casters such as monks or mesmers (who often cast spells) to do a devestatin amount of damage, as well as taking the burden off the party's monks.

Her skillbar was expanded into curses, because now she has the ability to remove enchantments ([skill=text]Strip Enchantment[/skill]) and severly weaken warriors with weakness, caused by [skill=text]Enfeeble[/skill].

With Eve's new skillbar, she provides herself, as well as some of the party, with some healing, most of it being regen. However, with 5 healing skills, she should be able to keep herself alive a lot more. Also, she is able to weaken casters with Soul Leech, as well as warriors.